<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1329</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	11/9/99 10:42:09 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 9 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1329<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Dreaming of  fractal maps<BR>
Re: character sheets and ships papers<BR>
RE: Recovering disabled grav vehicles<BR>
Re: Coke for Kiri (OT)<BR>
re: Zhodani and Psionics<BR>
Re: Coke for Kiri (OT)<BR>
re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
Re: Coke for Kiri (OT)<BR>
Re: Keith supplements mailed...<BR>
Regional Trolling (Still OT, Was: Re: Coke for Kiri (OT))<BR>
Re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
Re: Keith supplements mailed...<BR>
re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
re: Zhodani and Psionics<BR>
Re: Dreaming of  fractal maps<BR>
Other Traveller mailing lists?<BR>
Re: Coke for Kiri [OT]<BR>
Re: Justice and Criminal vs Civil<BR>
re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 09:09:54 -0600<BR>
From: Shimmergloom <shimmer@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Dreaming of  fractal maps<BR>
<BR>
Cool.  More fantastic stuff that I can't live without from Profant.<BR>
<BR>
Michel Vaillancourt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 02:44 AM 11/9/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> >Fellow Travellers,<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I have a dream... I have a dream of a program, a very nifty and useful<BR>
> >program that I would write -- if only I had any programming skills.  Sadly,<BR>
> >I have none, so I must ask for the assistance of the programmers on the<BR>
> >list...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >On my Mac, I have an After Dark screensaver module called "Planetmaker" --<BR>
> >a very nifty fractal planet map generator.  I had plans to use it to<BR>
> >quickly generate realistic world maps for MTU.<BR>
> ><BR>
>         [snip]<BR>
><BR>
>         Hi. Glenn!<BR>
>         I know of one product that will do this...  it is currently in Beta.<BR>
> It is by ProFantasy Inc, ("http://www.profantasy.com") and is called<BR>
> _Fractal Terrains_.  They are going out of thier way to add UWP support in<BR>
> it (mostly at my nagging).  Its a nice piece of kit that generates fully<BR>
> developed worlds that can be projected onto several different layouts;<BR>
> Mercator and much more.<BR>
>         Unfortunately, TTBOMK there are no Mac plans...  however, most of<BR>
> thier stuff is pretty well behaved under Virtual PC.<BR>
><BR>
>         --Michel<BR>
><BR>
>         -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
>         Michel R. Vaillancourt  misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
>                                 ICQ # 31172292<BR>
>         -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
>             NET-City Communications....<BR>
>                  Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
>         -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
>         ***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
>         -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
- -------------------------<BR>
"How much XP do we get if we join the bandits?"<BR>
<BR>
shimmer@mhtc.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 09:14:54 -0600<BR>
From: Shimmergloom <shimmer@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: character sheets and ships papers<BR>
<BR>
> William "Elfman" writes:<BR>
> >Hello all,<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I am new to this list so I will be brief and to the point.<BR>
> >I am looking for some electron based traveller character sheets<BR>
> >and ships papers. Anyone have any of these or at least knows<BR>
> >where to find them? These would be for the First version (Black<BR>
> >Book Set).<BR>
<BR>
what format?  I have a character sheet that I created  for traveller in<BR>
lotus Wordpro.  I think it's still around.  Granted it does not support<BR>
any single Traveller edition but tries to be more of a generic sheet.  I<BR>
think I still have it around here.<BR>
<BR>
- -------------------------<BR>
"How much XP do we get if we join the bandits?"<BR>
<BR>
shimmer@mhtc.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:18:58 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Recovering disabled grav vehicles<BR>
<BR>
The Roc writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>I can see a heavy-lift Grav-Recovery vehicle (similar to a large<BR>
>tilt-tray) land in front of a disabled grav-tank, the recovery<BR>
>crew lifting it on hydraulic lifts, fitting wheeled jigs front<BR>
>and back (or the tray itself may have rollers?), then winching it<BR>
>on board.  Once secured, the recovery crew mount the recovery<BR>
>vehicle and diddly bop off to rear area facilities to repair the<BR>
>disabled vehicle?<BR>
<BR>
	I could see this at about TL 8, but at slightly higher tech<BR>
	I would expect the recovery vehicle to just pick up the<BR>
	damaged AFV with cables or grappling gear of some sort.  At<BR>
	very high tech, gravetics would be used to lift the vehicle.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:10:20 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Coke for Kiri (OT)<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Michel Vaillancourt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 02:20 PM 11/8/99 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> <BR>
> >>         Hey, Kiri!  Instead of learning Hebrew, learn Canadian.  Canuck Coke<BR>
> >> is always made with sugar...  any time I trip south of the 49th, my friends<BR>
> >> always ask me to throw a few cases in the trunk to bring down to them...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Eh?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Bruce Johnson<BR>
> <BR>
>         Close, but the Texan accent mauled it.  Its more "Eh?" than the way<BR>
> you said it.  Just practice some more.<BR>
> <BR>
><BR>
 <BR>
WHO you callin' _texan_ <spit>???!!!<BR>
<BR>
:-P<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
              ^^^^^^^<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:09:56 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Zhodani and Psionics<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
Heck, no ; Skinnerian operant conditioning is predicated on a 'black<BR>
box' model of the brain. Most RW cognitive-behavioural therapies have<BR>
their origins in operant conditioning.<BR>
(My apologies to any psychologists or psychiatrists on the list who<BR>
were taught at schools with alternate views).<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
Combine a practical, no-nonsense approach to science with such<BR>
theories...and the Zhodani seem nothing of not practical.<BR>
<BR>
"When we zot a prole's brain like *this*, he stops behaving like *that*.<BR>
We will therefore zot like *this* all proles that behave like *that*."<BR>
<BR>
Granted, the Zho's have been at this a long time. The zot in question<BR>
may be very fine tuned, very sophisticated, and very effective - and yet<BR>
show no necessry understanding of the multiple processes being affected.<BR>
<BR>
I put forth the possibility of Heisenberg effects in psionic therapy <BR>
techniques - that by the act of investigating, you change what is<BR>
investigated. A proficient Zho may be able to root around deep inside<BR>
a brain, but the mental processes she will be looking at will not<BR>
necessarily be the same processes that would be going on if she<BR>
were not poking around in there.<BR>
<BR>
Then there may be adepts with lighter "touches" or who have developed<BR>
less invasive techniques - kind of like the rain forest biologist who studies<BR>
while suspended from a far-off crane, never stepping on what he's <BR>
investigating. If these techniques take longer to learn, are harder to do,<BR>
and have less reliable results, they may only be practiced by scientists<BR>
who have some strange ideas about Proles as some kind of equals to<BR>
Citizens. Of course, some Nobles need mental help as well...<BR>
<BR>
To whit: just as taming or changing a rain forest does not necessarily<BR>
show an understanding of it, taming or changing a human mind - especially<BR>
if something simple like "peacable prole" was the end result desired - <BR>
does not necessarily show knowledge of said mind, nor even interest<BR>
in workings of said mind.<BR>
<BR>
I'm considering the example from the original Zho aliens supplement,<BR>
where all the changes to the prole in question involved acceptance and<BR>
passivity. Those seem much less complex responses than any kind<BR>
of dynamic personality aspects that would make a person dangerous,<BR>
disruptive, or even interesting. Take the complex, make it simple and<BR>
easy to manage.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 12:25:54 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Coke for Kiri (OT)<BR>
<BR>
At 09:10 AM 11/9/1999 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>> >Eh?<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >Bruce Johnson<BR>
>> <BR>
>>         Close, but the Texan accent mauled it.  Its more "Eh?" than the way<BR>
>> you said it.  Just practice some more.<BR>
> <BR>
>WHO you callin' _texan_ <spit>???!!!<BR>
><BR>
>:-P<BR>
><BR>
>Bruce Johnson<BR>
>University of Arizona<BR>
>              ^^^^^^^<BR>
<BR>
        Wow!  I haven't seen a reaction like that since the last time I<BR>
suggested that Alberta was an Ontario-wannabe.....  =)<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
        (who really ought not to troll like that....)<BR>
<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    NET-City Communications....<BR>
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:34:34 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
<BR>
GypsyComet wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
 Er. The Proles get no vote at all. Just as with the Imperium, the common <BR>
man gets some control, sometimes, over his immediate form of government, <BR>
but the governance of the Consulate as a whole is determined top-to-bottom <BR>
by the Nobility.<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
The Proles get a "vote" by outnumbering the Nobles by several orders<BR>
of magnitude. They are induced by various means to "vote" not to <BR>
overthrow the government, the mechanism of this vote is that they<BR>
do not overthrow the government.<BR>
<BR>
All governments operate by consent of the governed. This consent may<BR>
be compelled by force, fear, or fraud, or gained through trust and good<BR>
stewardship, but the consent is still required. In the Zhodani society,<BR>
consent is in some ways impelled, by turning dissenters into supporters<BR>
whether the dissenter wants to or not.<BR>
<BR>
Ever read John Christopher's "Tripods" series? Aliens come to Earth,<BR>
take over, and keep people in line by putting these mesh "caps" on<BR>
people, that keep their brains from thinking bad thoughts. The Zho's<BR>
make me think of that.<BR>
<BR>
GypsyComet again:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
 Human psyche being what it is, the Tavrchedl' will prefer adjustment <BR>
techniques that will stand up under pressure, whether you view the <BR>
Zhodani as benevolent or malevolent. If you have to re-adjust the same <BR>
poor b----rd every few months because his job is stressful enough to <BR>
shred the "life is simple" conditioning you stamped on his brain in three <BR>
minutes, then you are very probably going to work on the twenty minute <BR>
"good for a decade" technique just to keep the workload down. <BR>
>>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
Except that jobs with that kind of stress levels probably aren't performed<BR>
by simple proles. The high-stress jobs are done by the hosts of <BR>
Intendants, out there trying to prove themselves in Zho society, or by<BR>
the Nobles. These people have entirely different worldviews than the<BR>
simple ones allowed to the proles. and will have very different coping<BR>
mechanisms.<BR>
<BR>
Gypsy again:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
As suggested by the original Zhodani Module, this will often involve <BR>
installing techniques and thought channels that help the person "deal"<BR>
more readily.<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
"More readily" as in "in the way the Zho oligarchy wants him to deal<BR>
with it". Of course, that's what our societies intend with social <BR>
conditioning, the benevolent Zho idea is that the Zho's are supposed<BR>
to have the information needed to be better at it.<BR>
<BR>
The channels in the example all involved acceptance, passivity - <BR>
simple responses, pretty much based on "THAT IS NOT A PROBLEM<BR>
TO YOU. IGNORE IT. BE HAPPY."<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
Carefully making sure his psionic shield helmet is in proper working<BR>
order.....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:41:45 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erikson wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
Anything that requires "mass conditioning" *can't* be simple or<BR>
efficient. The mere fact that you have to do it to *everyone* makes it<BR>
inefficient. And given the facts above, it'll lots of monitoring and<BR>
adjustment. <BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
It depends how powerful and effective the Zot has become over time.<BR>
Yes, it may be very bad for the prole in the long run, he may even<BR>
stress himself to death trying to warp his brain around the commands<BR>
bolted onto his brain when he misbehaved. The prole will blow up by<BR>
dying...not by causing trouble. If keeping the proles from causing<BR>
trouble was the only intent, this is sufficient...if the Zho's have more<BR>
in mind, their Zot may get better.<BR>
<BR>
The Zot may even obliterate those troublesome drives all together,<BR>
leaving some very peaceable, very boring sheep in human bodies<BR>
as subjects, and none of the dangerous venting you pointed out<BR>
in your post. You'll also never get a prole who does anything courageous,<BR>
or creative, or even very interesting, but that's OK - that's what Nobles<BR>
and Intendents are for.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
Studying for a degree in Imperial Anti-Zho Propaganda<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:01:47 -0800<BR>
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Coke for Kiri (OT)<BR>
<BR>
> At 09:10 AM 11/9/1999 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >> >Eh?<BR>
> >> ><BR>
> >> >Bruce Johnson<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>         Close, but the Texan accent mauled it.  Its more "Eh?" than the<BR>
way<BR>
> >> you said it.  Just practice some more.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >WHO you callin' _texan_ <spit>???!!!<BR>
> ><BR>
> >:-P<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Bruce Johnson<BR>
> >University of Arizona<BR>
> >              ^^^^^^^<BR>
><BR>
>         Wow!  I haven't seen a reaction like that since the last time I<BR>
> suggested that Alberta was an Ontario-wannabe.....  =)<BR>
><BR>
>         --Michel<BR>
>         (who really ought not to troll like that....)<BR>
><BR>
Michel, you should be glad you didn't say that to me. We all know Alberta<BR>
could never sink that low.<BR>
<BR>
Wayne<BR>
wewart@home.com<BR>
<BR>
Give a man fire and he is warm for the night.<BR>
Set a man on fire and he is warm all his life.<BR>
- - Terry Pratchett<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:18:41 -0800<BR>
From: Jerry Paul Sanders <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Keith supplements mailed...<BR>
<BR>
Knew I'd forgotten something. Sent that last update at 2 in the<BR>
morning...never a good Idea :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
http://www.primenet.com/~timmon/supplements.html<BR>
<BR>
With the following page counts:<BR>
<BR>
Letter of Marque - 89<BR>
Scam - 68<BR>
Faldor - 77<BR>
Starport/Planetfall - 47<BR>
Arctic Environment - 37<BR>
Imperial Calendar - 32<BR>
Reavers' Deep Sector Sourcebook - 63<BR>
Volentine Gambit - 30<BR>
<BR>
Cost is $100 (includes surface postage) and includes the last three free if<BR>
ordered by Dec. 8th<BR>
<BR>
L8r,<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 07:07 AM 11/9/99 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>> Jerry Paul Sanders writes:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Ok...made it!!!! I was able to get a few of the Keith Supplements<BR>
>> into the<BR>
>> mail today before the post-office closed at noon. Worked the<BR>
>> remainer of<BR>
>> the day and have several more ready to send out on monday. <BR>
><BR>
>You mentioned some sets were left and you would update your website.<BR>
>However, you didn't tell us (those that don't have it saved somewhere)<BR>
>what that address is. And the address is....<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Terry<BR>
><BR>
>=====<BR>
><BR>
>__________________________________________________<BR>
>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 13:13:46 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Regional Trolling (Still OT, Was: Re: Coke for Kiri (OT))<BR>
<BR>
At 09:01 AM 11/9/1999 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>>         Wow!  I haven't seen a reaction like that since the last time I<BR>
>> suggested that Alberta was an Ontario-wannabe.....  =)<BR>
>><BR>
>>         --Michel<BR>
>>         (who really ought not to troll like that....)<BR>
>><BR>
>Michel, you should be glad you didn't say that to me. We all know Alberta<BR>
>could never sink that low.<BR>
><BR>
>Wayne<BR>
>wewart@home.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
        Actually Wayne, I believe it was...  I believe your reaction was to<BR>
suggest I ought to be concerned with my propeller dodging skills....  =)<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
        (who really can't come up with a good ObTrav at this point, save for<BR>
the usual introspectives about Vargr/ Aslan/ Marches regionalism....)<BR>
<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    NET-City Communications....<BR>
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:15:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
<BR>
Walter Smith writes:<BR>
<BR>
> The Proles get a "vote" by outnumbering the Nobles by several orders<BR>
> of magnitude. They are induced by various means to "vote" not to <BR>
> overthrow the government, the mechanism of this vote is that they<BR>
> do not overthrow the government.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, that's not true.  The nobles are some 5% of the Zhodani population<BR>
<BR>
> Except that jobs with that kind of stress levels probably aren't performed<BR>
> by simple proles. The high-stress jobs are done by the hosts of <BR>
> Intendants, out there trying to prove themselves in Zho society, or by<BR>
> the Nobles. These people have entirely different worldviews than the<BR>
> simple ones allowed to the proles. and will have very different coping<BR>
> mechanisms.<BR>
<BR>
There are plenty of high-stress jobs which are fairly meaningless and won't necessarily be done by Intendants or Nobles.  For example, firefighting.<BR>
<BR>
> As suggested by the original Zhodani Module, this will often involve <BR>
> installing techniques and thought channels that help the person "deal"<BR>
> more readily.<BR>
> >>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
> "More readily" as in "in the way the Zho oligarchy wants him to deal<BR>
> with it". Of course, that's what our societies intend with social <BR>
> conditioning, the benevolent Zho idea is that the Zho's are supposed<BR>
> to have the information needed to be better at it.<BR>
<BR>
The evidence is that they're right.<BR>
> <BR>
> The channels in the example all involved acceptance, passivity - <BR>
> simple responses, pretty much based on "THAT IS NOT A PROBLEM<BR>
> TO YOU. IGNORE IT. BE HAPPY."<BR>
<BR>
Well, other solutions aren't impossible -- for example, convincing some loner who'd be likely to go postal to get out, get a hobby, talk to people, etc...<BR>
<BR>
Not that I don't think the Zhodani government is appalling ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:34:45 -0800<BR>
From: Jerry Paul Sanders <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Keith supplements mailed...<BR>
<BR>
At 03:21 PM 11/9/99 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>Hmmm... I just hope you spelled my name right ;-).<BR>
<BR>
Oh man :( Nope, I didn't -  Thanks for pointing out my error. I've fixed it<BR>
now, but the first 8 sets mailed will have it wrong. Sorry about that.<BR>
<BR>
Cordially,<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:33:59 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 9 Nov 1999 GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  Er. The Proles get no vote at all. Just as with the Imperium, the common man <BR>
> gets some control, sometimes, over his immediate form of government, but the <BR>
> governance of the Consulate as a whole is determined top-to-bottom by the <BR>
> Nobility. Despite the historical precedents, most modern Zhodani nobility got <BR>
> that way due to being psionic.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, by my reading of the character generation rules and source<BR>
material, most of the modern nobility got that way by inheritance.<BR>
<BR>
Though all the existing canon doesn't explain why, given fairly easy<BR>
upward mobility, there are still proles left after a few thousand years.<BR>
<BR>
>  At the risk of ruining the strip, I recommend reading a few weeks of Dilbert <BR>
> as if it were a window into a Zhodani business. Keep the following questions <BR>
> in mind:<BR>
<BR>
Nah, them guys are Vilani.  I'm planning on asking permission to translate<BR>
a few strips into Vilani, eventually.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:37:43 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Zhodani and Psionics<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Walter Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I put forth the possibility of Heisenberg effects in psionic therapy <BR>
> techniques - that by the act of investigating, you change what is<BR>
> investigated. A proficient Zho may be able to root around deep inside<BR>
> a brain, but the mental processes she will be looking at will not<BR>
> necessarily be the same processes that would be going on if she<BR>
> were not poking around in there.<BR>
<BR>
Interesting... I like this idea; makes Trav psionics less of a pushbutton<BR>
gadget technology.<BR>
<BR>
> I'm considering the example from the original Zho aliens supplement,<BR>
> where all the changes to the prole in question involved acceptance and<BR>
> passivity. Those seem much less complex responses than any kind<BR>
<BR>
Although I've learned recently to reject the illusory value of<BR>
"interpretation" as practiced by whiny liberal pseudo-intellectuals, I<BR>
think we may have a case of it here.  I'd read those examples as<BR>
describing how a prole was 'zotted' to become more dynamic and active in<BR>
society, and begin engaging in life more fully.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 18:54:01 +0100<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Dreaming of  fractal maps<BR>
<BR>
Shimmergloom wrote:<BR>
> Cool.  More fantastic stuff that I can't live without from Profant.<BR>
<BR>
How good/fast/easy-to-learn are ProFantasy's products anyway?<BR>
<BR>
I have been thinking about buying them for a long time, but every time I<BR>
haven't, because I haven't really had a neutral opinion on the programs.<BR>
<BR>
What I am looking for is a program that can help me design maps quite<BR>
quickly, but still with a nice-looking end result. I can live with<BR>
spending a few (or more) hours to learn to use the program, as long as<BR>
it's quick and easy to use once learned. I want to design maps for all<BR>
kinds of settings, from Fantasy to SF.<BR>
<BR>
Will CC2 and the associated products meet my needs?<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 19:19:55 +0100<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Other Traveller mailing lists?<BR>
<BR>
I know that at one point, there were other Traveller mailing lists. Are<BR>
any of those still active, or have they all been joined into this large<BR>
list?<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:22:04 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Coke for Kiri [OT]<BR>
<BR>
dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Hey, Kiri!  Instead of learning Hebrew, learn Canadian.  Canuck Coke<BR>
> >is always made with sugar...  any time I trip south of the 49th, my friends<BR>
> >always ask me to throw a few cases in the trunk to bring down to them...<BR>
><BR>
> <pro commonwealth><BR>
><BR>
> I thought canadian wasn't a language, it was a way of life. It's what all<BR>
> Americans become when they pass their IQ test. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Naw it's not a IQ test it is the genetic defect not knowing what customer<BR>
service is..<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:02:03 +0000<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Justice and Criminal vs Civil<BR>
<BR>
In message <0.8fc13322.2555bfe0@aol.com>, Sethkimmel@aol.com writes<BR>
>2) The party gets caught up in a viscous race war <BR>
>on a balkanized world.<BR>
<BR>
Well they do say blood is thicker than water.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:38:11 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> GypsyComet again:<BR>
> >>>>>>>>>><BR>
>  Human psyche being what it is, the Tavrchedl' will prefer adjustment <BR>
> techniques that will stand up under pressure, whether you view the <BR>
> Zhodani as benevolent or malevolent. If you have to re-adjust the same <BR>
> poor b----rd every few months because his job is stressful enough to <BR>
> shred the "life is simple" conditioning you stamped on his brain in three <BR>
> minutes, then you are very probably going to work on the twenty minute <BR>
> "good for a decade" technique just to keep the workload down. <BR>
> >>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
> Except that jobs with that kind of stress levels probably aren't performed<BR>
> by simple proles. The high-stress jobs are done by the hosts of <BR>
> Intendants, out there trying to prove themselves in Zho society, or by<BR>
> the Nobles. These people have entirely different worldviews than the<BR>
> simple ones allowed to the proles. and will have very different coping<BR>
> mechanisms.<BR>
<BR>
Have any of you _read_ the various Zhodani supplements?<BR>
<BR>
What would be done with the poor b____d is that he'd be moved into a job<BR>
more suited to his talents/limits. They're not bending peopel to fit the<BR>
job, but the jobs to fit the people.<BR>
<BR>
There are people who are naturally more or less able to deal with stress;<BR>
they will be steered into the jobs that generate the stress. I can't think<BR>
of a job that someone, somewhere doesn't find enjoyable. In fact most<BR>
people going postal are due to the unresolved stresses of a life that<BR>
isn't suited for them. The job just tends to be the last straw.<BR>
<BR>
The Zhodani mind control, other than described in Impy agitprop, isn't<BR>
oriented so much to coerce behavior, as to find the best fit between prole<BR>
and life. Think of it as extremely effective, cradle-to-grave<BR>
psychotherapy, without all the California-style psychobabble bs.<BR>
<BR>
Where is it stated or implied that proles have a limited world view? They<BR>
are limited in the positions they can attain, but by the time they're<BR>
adults, they _know_ it's because of their inherent limitations, not that<BR>
they're being 'denied' a chance. They _like_ what they're doing and how<BR>
they live.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce "just call me eeenye" Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:38:11 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> GypsyComet again:<BR>
> >>>>>>>>>><BR>
>  Human psyche being what it is, the Tavrchedl' will prefer adjustment <BR>
> techniques that will stand up under pressure, whether you view the <BR>
> Zhodani as benevolent or malevolent. If you have to re-adjust the same <BR>
> poor b----rd every few months because his job is stressful enough to <BR>
> shred the "life is simple" conditioning you stamped on his brain in three <BR>
> minutes, then you are very probably going to work on the twenty minute <BR>
> "good for a decade" technique just to keep the workload down. <BR>
> >>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
> Except that jobs with that kind of stress levels probably aren't performed<BR>
> by simple proles. The high-stress jobs are done by the hosts of <BR>
> Intendants, out there trying to prove themselves in Zho society, or by<BR>
> the Nobles. These people have entirely different worldviews than the<BR>
> simple ones allowed to the proles. and will have very different coping<BR>
> mechanisms.<BR>
<BR>
Have any of you _read_ the various Zhodani supplements?<BR>
<BR>
What would be done with the poor b____d is that he'd be moved into a job<BR>
more suited to his talents/limits. They're not bending peopel to fit the<BR>
job, but the jobs to fit the people.<BR>
<BR>
There are people who are naturally more or less able to deal with stress;<BR>
they will be steered into the jobs that generate the stress. I can't think<BR>
of a job that someone, somewhere doesn't find enjoyable. In fact most<BR>
people going postal are due to the unresolved stresses of a life that<BR>
isn't suited for them. The job just tends to be the last straw.<BR>
<BR>
The Zhodani mind control, other than described in Impy agitprop, isn't<BR>
oriented so much to coerce behavior, as to find the best fit between prole<BR>
and life. Think of it as extremely effective, cradle-to-grave<BR>
psychotherapy, without all the California-style psychobabble bs.<BR>
<BR>
Where is it stated or implied that proles have a limited world view? They<BR>
are limited in the positions they can attain, but by the time they're<BR>
adults, they _know_ it's because of their inherent limitations, not that<BR>
they're being 'denied' a chance. They _like_ what they're doing and how<BR>
they live.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce "just call me eeenye" Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1329<BR>
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